X5 only 60mbps is this a big issue?

Whodatdere · Sep 21, 2015

supercharged007m said:
Here's a copy of what I wrote over on DJI's forums. Just my thoughts.

The X5 does only 1 thing for me. It allows me to capture in lower light. The problems from there are numerous. The image is then compressed down to 60mbps which causes artifacting just like the x3. Which means that I'm going to limit myself to more properly lit situations. The next problem is the color space with 8bit 4:2:0. Giving little latitude for trying to correct/edit the picture out in post.

DJI... if you're listening to your customers here's what your use cases are:

X3: Web, Support, 2nd cam, non-broadcast industry
- This is web only export. Usually used as a camera for real-estate, industrial, government, and small private industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5 1st camera low-end production environment.
- In this environment where the image can be sized down and where color editing needs to be less precise and client expectations are much lower the compression can be greater and chroma sub sampling can be very large.
- 4k, 60mbps, 4:2:0

X5: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, semi-broadcast
This is web primarily, semi-broadcast capable. Usually used for storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5r 1st camera mid-level production environment.
- In this environment where the image often needs to meet higher levels of quality but some minor artifacting can be acceptable less compression is needed and less chroma sub sampling is desired, but limited by the sd card.
- 4k, 100mbps, 4:2:2

X5r: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, broadcast
This is web or broadcast ready. Primarily used for cinema/tv/web in storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera in a multi-rotor high-level production environment.
Finally in this environment where the highest qualities must be met the compression needs to be minimal to non-existant and there needs to be no chroma sub sampling. Resulting in imagery that is limited only by the camera and lens.
- 4k, 1.6gbps, 4:4:4

These are your client groups DJI. By creating the X5 as it is currently it rests in a strange no-mans land where you have a nicer camera but poor compression and mediocre chroma sub sampling. As we can see by using the same camera being used in the X5r we simply need an updated codec for the X5 to be in the right price range.

As I said over on the other forum this nails it.

supercharged007m · Sep 21, 2015

Thanks Whodatdere.

gruvpix · Sep 21, 2015

ianwood said:
Great first post!

Word. DJI could make a killing off the middle segment with only small upgrades to the compression and sampling... Instead I think they will just carry on as is and force us to pick one over the other, neither truly offering a cost-effective, complete solution.

howard rockliffe · Sep 21, 2015

gruvpix said:
Word. DJI could make a killing off the middle segment with only small upgrades to the compression and sampling... Instead I think they will just carry on as is and force us to pick one over the other, neither truly offering a cost-effective, complete solution.

I agree. But that would backfire on DJI as I feel there is such a wave of frustration over this release that many simply won't buy the camera, including myself! In fact I am seriously looking at jumping ship and taking another direction altogether.

gruvpix · Sep 21, 2015

howard rockliffe said:
I agree. But that would backfire on DJI as I feel there is such a wave of frustration over this release that many simply won't buy the camera, including myself! In fact I am seriously looking at jumping ship and taking another direction altogether.

It's tough because we are so invested in DJI, I mean the platform and UI is rock solid and we have the gear and in-depth knowledge of how to use it. I'm personally excited to receive our X5 although expectations have definitely been tempered thanks to these forums, for good or bad.
If there wasn't an abundance of analysis and debate, I probably would have made the purchase, appreciated the improvement in quality and been on my merry way!
Ah well, information is good.

InterMurph · Sep 21, 2015

howard rockliffe said:
I agree. But that would backfire on DJI as I feel there is such a wave of frustration over this release that many simply won't buy the camera, including myself! In fact I am seriously looking at jumping ship and taking another direction altogether.

I have saved the link to this comment, which I will post on your inevitable "Here's my first X5 footage" post...

howard rockliffe · Sep 21, 2015

InterMurph said:
I have saved the link to this comment, which I will post on your inevitable "Here's my first X5 footage" post...

Yeah, you're probably right.

InterMurph · Sep 21, 2015

I share your frustration with the 60 megabits/second data rate. But my frustration is, "this product is almost perfectly exactly what I asked for; all except for the bit rate!"

So I have ordered one, and I can't wait for it to get here. I have no interest in flying my X3 any more.

I just hope that 1) the 60 megabits/second is not a hardware limitation, either in the MicroSD slot or in the compression processor, and 2) that DJI will listen to the complaints and give us the option to use higher bit rates.

The win-win would be: you don't buy the camera until our collective complaints are addressed. Once they offer a higher bit rate, you buy it, and we all enjoy it!

howard rockliffe · Sep 21, 2015

Absolutely nailed it. I agree, any business should be looking at implementing a win win situation with their service or product. It isn't just about creating a product and tyring to maximise profits at any cost. It's about repaying customers with the same degree of loyalty that they offer by buying into the brand and the product in the first place. There are thousands upon thousands of loyal and supportive DJI customers and I really believe that DJI needs to listen to them as much as they do to their sales and marketing gurus! When I saw the realease of the X5 I nearly wet my pants! It was everything I had been waiting for, especially the 16Mp stills and MFT sensor. Then I read the specs, and I couldn't believe what I was reading...60Mbps.

gruvpix · Sep 21, 2015

howard rockliffe said:
Absolutely nailed it. I agree, any business should be looking at implementing a win win situation with their service or product. It isn't just about creating a product and tyring to maximise profits at any cost. It's about repaying customers with the same degree of loyalty that they offer by buying into the brand and the product in the first place. There are thousands upon thousands of loyal and supportive DJI customers and I really believe that DJI needs to listen to them as much as they do to their sales and marketing gurus! When I saw the realease of the X5 I nearly wet my pants! It was everything I had been waiting for, especially the 16Mp stills and MFT sensor. Then I read the specs, and I couldn't believe what I was reading...60Mbps.

Something tells me old Frank Wang isn't sold on that philosophy...
Bow To Your Billionaire Drone Overlord: Frank Wang's Quest To Put DJI Robots Into The Sky

howard rockliffe · Sep 21, 2015

gruvpix said:
Something tells me old Frank Wang isn't sold on that philosophy...
Bow To Your Billionaire Drone Overlord: Frank Wang's Quest To Put DJI Robots Into The Sky

I'm sure you're right, but that mentality in business has no longevity and can often jump up and bite your arse when you least expect it!

damoncooper · Sep 21, 2015

Guys, let's wait till we get our hands on production units and output to judge.

As a DJI friend said to me,

"...the folks at DJI understand the issues at play here, and feedback is always welcome. Everyone wants it all, but there are a lot of factors that affect decision making in product. Maybe the next one will be what you want, and not the current (first ever) offering of a sensor this size in such a small package...disappointment in the absence of production equipment and actual testing is a bit strange.

In the meantime, a lot of people are very excited and will find the X5 to be useful. You can, of course, always fly a GH4 and get the bitrates you want. My hunch is that the increased convenience will trump the difference in bitrate...there are a lot of still photographers out there. This is a no-brainer for them."

InterMurph · Sep 21, 2015

Bummer. That makes it sound like higher big rates are not possible with this hardware.

powerjeep · Sep 22, 2015

Sony a mis un an pour produire le firmware 100mbs pour la AX100. Comme je l'ai dit, après bien des essais ..corrections de couleurs, compressions etc.. la différence est tellement minime que la plupart des "DJI' Men" seront plus que satisfait.. c'est mon avis .
Sauf si la caméra n'est pas bonne, le capteur n'est pas bon et l'optique n'est pas bonne...
On peut toujours attendre... et quand sortira la 100mbps... ce sera... comment c'est possible .. pourquoi pas 200mbps..

google translate

Sony took a year to produce the 100Mbs firmware for the AX100. As I said, after many trials ..corrections colors, cuts etc .. the difference is so minimal that most "DJI" Men "will be more than satisfied .. that's my opinion.
Unless the camera is not good, the sensor is not good and optics is not good ...
One can always expect to come out ... and when 100mbps ... it will ... how is that possible .. why not .. 200mbps

InterMurph · Sep 22, 2015

One of the main benefits of a higher bit rate is that it would enable "All-I" (intra-frame) compression, in which each video frame is compressed individually, and not based on previous frames. The compression is still lossy, but it suffers less blocking and artifacts than the standard IPB (inter-frame) compression technique. Even Canon DSLRs have this feature.

So what I would like is three options: 1) 50 megabits/second IPB (inter-frame) compression, 2) 100 megabits/second IPB (inter-frame) compression, and 3) 200 megabits/second All-I (intra-frame) compression.

In other words, I want what the GH4 has.

howard rockliffe · Sep 22, 2015

InterMurph said:
One of the main benefits of a higher bit rate is that it would enable "All-I" (intra-frame) compression, in which each video frame is compressed individually, and not based on previous frames. The compression is still lossy, but it suffers less blocking and artifacts than the standard IPB (inter-frame) compression technique. Even Canon DSLRs have this feature.

So what I would like is three options: 1) 50 megabits/second IPB (inter-frame) compression, 2) 100 megabits/second IPB (inter-frame) compression, and 3) 200 megabits/second All-I (intra-frame) compression.

In other words, I want what the GH4 has.

OK, well you seem to know what you're talking about. So, bearing in mind that DJI have developed this X5, is it possible for them to increase the bitrate via a software update, or is it limited by hardware? So far, I've been unable to find an answer to this.

InterMurph · Sep 22, 2015

We don't know that. But Damon Cooper's quote of a "DJI friend" in post #112 doesn't bode well:

Everyone wants it all, but there are a lot of factors that affect decision making in product. Maybe the next one will be what you want, and not the current (first ever) offering of a sensor this size in such a small package..

That makes it sound like there will be an X6 camera with higher bit rates.

howard rockliffe · Sep 22, 2015

InterMurph said:
We don't know that. But Damon Cooper's quote of a "DJI friend" in post #112 doesn't bode well:

That makes it sound like there will be an X6 camera with higher bit rates.

I think the problem with DJI and it is becoming more apparent, is they're in love with Apple! Apple plays the game where they release an Iphone, and then months later release an updated version which includes all the technology that could have, and should have, been included with the preceeding model. This is one thing when upgrading a phone costing a few hundred dollars, but if DJI think that people are going to keep updating $0000's of dollars worth of camera each time they decide to release an upgrade, I think they're going to lose a chunk load of customers. I see good business acumen and I see greed in businesses. Customers are cool with good business acumen, but when they see greed, or feel like they're being taken for a ride, that's when things turn tits up! I can't think DJI cannot upgrade the X5 before it's release with a decent bitrate speed, I just can't see it being such a big issue, unless of course, all they want us to do is drop £2000 on the kit and then release another version with a higher bitrate a short time later. That... will be the one single reason I drop DJI like a lead balloon!

InterMurph · Sep 22, 2015

The problem with your theory: Apple and DJI are producing products that consumers want.

At initial release, the Inspire 1 was head and shoulders above the competition. The camera was substantially better than the GoPro and P2V+. It wasn't great, but the platform was designed to support new, better cameras in the future.

Now the future is here, and they have produced what appears to be an outstanding camera, which is a quantum leap ahead of the X3. And the price is absolutely reasonable, given the sensor and gimbal. It's not perfect; the low bit rate is my #1 complaint.

But people are lining up to buy it. And if they increase the bit rate on this hardware, awesome. If not, and if instead they release an X6 or X7 camera with better specs, then some of us might be upset, but a lot of us will sell our X5s and buy the X6/X7 to get the better bit rate. And the new customers will look at the choice, and pick the appropriate one.

I'm not defending DJI here; the 60 megabits/second rate is clearly too low. But they are definitely not being evil here; they are pushing the limits, and we are benefiting.

howard rockliffe · Sep 22, 2015

InterMurph said:
The problem with your theory: Apple and DJI are producing products that consumers want.

At initial release, the Inspire 1 was head and shoulders above the competition. The camera was substantially better than the GoPro and P2V+. It wasn't great, but the platform was designed to support new, better cameras in the future.

Now the future is here, and they have produced what appears to be an outstanding camera, which is a quantum leap ahead of the X3. And the price is absolutely reasonable, given the sensor and gimbal. It's not perfect; the low bit rate is my #1 complaint.

But people are lining up to buy it. And if they increase the bit rate on this hardware, awesome. If not, and if instead they release an X6 or X7 camera with better specs, then some of us might be upset, but a lot of us will sell our X5s and buy the X6/X7 to get the better bit rate. And the new customers will look at the choice, and pick the appropriate one.

I'm not defending DJI here; the 60 megabits/second rate is clearly too low. But they are definitely not being evil here; they are pushing the limits, and we are benefiting.

Sure, I just come from a different angle and while I agree about what you're saying, I still think it will stink. If DJI are OK with pissing people off big time, then so be it.