X5 only 60mbps is this a big issue?

InterMurph · Sep 22, 2015

You see DJI "pissing people off big time", but I think that is really "producing an almost-perfect product, and having people focus on the one relatively minor shortcoming".

howard rockliffe · Sep 22, 2015

InterMurph said:
You see DJI "pissing people off big time", but I think that is really "producing an almost-perfect product, and having people focus on the one relatively minor shortcoming".

But this whole bitrate issue, in many people's eyes, isn't a relatively minor shortcoming. Anyway, we'll have to wait and see I guess.

InterMurph · Sep 22, 2015

I very much believe that it is. The quality of this MFT sensor, and the quality of the MFT lenses, means that the X5 camera represents a huge improvement in video quality over the X3. The fact that it is limited to the same bit rate as the X3 doesn't somehow make it worse; it just makes it a "huge improvement" instead of an "incredibly huge improvement."

We are both speculating, of course; we will have to wait to see. But the MFT sensors and lenses are quite mature, and there is every reason to believe that this is going to be a great camera.

ianwood · Sep 22, 2015

You had me at "All-I compression". But then you lost me at DJI making "an almost perfect product". I'll give DJI tons of credit for leading the industry time and again but a number of their products are far from perfect at launch. They often look like public betas that DJI then scrambles to fix in real-time. Apple produces "almost perfect products". DJI rushes great ideas to market before they're ready.

As for the X5, I hope you're right about it being a great improvement despite the limited processing power. Frankly, I will be pleasantly surprised. I will have a hard time getting over the choice of reusing the A9 SOC.

InterMurph · Sep 22, 2015

I don't believe DJI products function perfectly.

But the design of the X5 camera is almost perfect. A giant MFT sensor, interchangeable MFT lenses, 3-axis gimbal, all attachable to the Inspire we already own.

Remember that just 9 months ago, our big choice was GoPro vs. Phantom 2 Vision+. I just looked at some of my P2V+ footage from last year; compared to the X3, it's pretty meh. But that was state-of-the-art 9 months ago!

PS Yes, I am aware of the S900/S1000.

White Airwolf · Sep 23, 2015

gruvpix said:
To further my point, detailed specs on the recently announced Sony FS5 are similar. 100 Mbps max bitrate in 4K, 60 Mbps at 24p

The Sony FS5 is a piece of garbage. The local dealer in Toronto has not received a single pre order. It is for wedding guys and low end requirements only. The FS7 is what people are buying with a much much higher bit rate in 4K plus 422 10 bit.

SimonMW · Sep 23, 2015

To further my point, detailed specs on the recently announced Sony FS5 are similar. 100 Mbps max bitrate in 4K, 60 Mbps at 24p

No, you can have 100Mbps at 24p, but you can choose to record at the lower 60Mbps if you like.

One other thing, as I mentioned in an earlier post, a Sony camera such as this at 60Mbps cannot be compared to 60Mbps on the DJI system, simply because no two compressors are the same. The Sony ones are head and shoulders above rivals in terms of quality for the same bitrate because of their years of experience making compression systems.

Rainbowers · Sep 24, 2015

supercharged007m said:
Here's a copy of what I wrote over on DJI's forums. Just my thoughts.

The X5 does only 1 thing for me. It allows me to capture in lower light. The problems from there are numerous. The image is then compressed down to 60mbps which causes artifacting just like the x3. Which means that I'm going to limit myself to more properly lit situations. The next problem is the color space with 8bit 4:2:0. Giving little latitude for trying to correct/edit the picture out in post.

DJI... if you're listening to your customers here's what your use cases are:

X3: Web, Support, 2nd cam, non-broadcast industry
- This is web only export. Usually used as a camera for real-estate, industrial, government, and small private industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5 1st camera low-end production environment.
- In this environment where the image can be sized down and where color editing needs to be less precise and client expectations are much lower the compression can be greater and chroma sub sampling can be very large.
- 4k, 60mbps, 4:2:0

X5: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, semi-broadcast
This is web primarily, semi-broadcast capable. Usually used for storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5r 1st camera mid-level production environment.
- In this environment where the image often needs to meet higher levels of quality but some minor artifacting can be acceptable less compression is needed and less chroma sub sampling is desired, but limited by the sd card.
- 4k, 100mbps, 4:2:2

X5r: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, broadcast
This is web or broadcast ready. Primarily used for cinema/tv/web in storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera in a multi-rotor high-level production environment.
Finally in this environment where the highest qualities must be met the compression needs to be minimal to non-existant and there needs to be no chroma sub sampling. Resulting in imagery that is limited only by the camera and lens.
- 4k, 1.6gbps, 4:4:4

These are your client groups DJI. By creating the X5 as it is currently it rests in a strange no-mans land where you have a nicer camera but poor compression and mediocre chroma sub sampling. As we can see by using the same camera being used in the X5r we simply need an updated codec for the X5 to be in the right price range.

Super warning to DJI !
I would like flexible software to choose myself the bautrates adapting to my ssd capacities. All I1 stability and pro-settings will be combined in a new SW next year with longer flight times ? Really would like to know the next step of DJI development before spending $$$

Burlingtonfilms · Oct 7, 2015

howard rockliffe said:
But this whole bitrate issue, in many people's eyes, isn't a relatively minor shortcoming. Anyway, we'll have to wait and see I guess.

It was the biggest issue with the X3, now it's the biggest issue with the X5.

JayBurd · Oct 7, 2015

Rainbowers said:
Super warning to DJI !
I would like flexible software to choose myself the bautrates adapting to my ssd capacities. All I1 stability and pro-settings will be combined in a new SW next year with longer flight times ? Really would like to know the next step of DJI development before spending $$$

I don't think they will tell anybody. At this stage competition is heating up, disclosing product road map to potential buyers would also tip off competitors.

Machoman · Oct 7, 2015

InterMurph said:
The quality of this MFT sensor, and the quality of the MFT lenses, means that the X5 camera represents a huge improvement in video quality over the X3.

Do you know the quality? It should present a huge improvement yes but look the test.....

tweaker · Oct 8, 2015

X5 60mbps is not a big issue. Maybe for DJI but not for the consumer.

The Yuneec Tornado H920 new mft camera does 100mbps and comes with top level customer support!! Just saying like....

Move over DJI -Yuneec coming through?

Figbar · Oct 8, 2015

I don't know anything about this unit....does it have camera control from the ground and all the other cool stuff the inspire has, raised landing gear, great app, etc. I would consider this in a heartbeat if it produces good imagery. What is the point of all of this? To me, it's getting great video/photos. Thanks

InterMurph · Oct 8, 2015

Hopefully DJI will get the message and implement a higher bit rate. I am intrigued by the Tornado, and my friend Ian who has one loves it. I would prefer to stick with DJI, but if they don't deliver here, I can switch.

This is exactly what happened with Canon DSLR video. They basically created the market, then settled for mediocre quality while everybody else zoomed past them. I now own three Sony mirrorless camers, and use them exclusively for video. I still own my 5D Mark III, but I only use it for stills.

Eric Cheng, I hope you are listening.

tweaker · Oct 8, 2015

Yes I love my Inspire but thinking seriously about switching.

Currently fence sitting but teetering.

Figbar- I have no real experience myself of h920 currently seeing whats out there before I X5 upgrade( or not). H920 looks really,really attractive. In fact it seems too good to be true!!!

H920 has choice of three cameras/zoom control of latest camera from ground and top level customer support ie someone picks up the phone and talks to you etc etc. Do not want to hijack thread but if anybody has real experience or thoughts on h920 etc would be interested to compare.

Machoman · Oct 8, 2015

Its only a small thing and would really be funny if this is the reason but DJI again delivers their 16GB Lexar crap with the Inspire Pro. The problem ist this SD card could not write 100 Mbps. The 633x is read only but Lexar classified it at U1 and not U3 and admits is only writes 10-20 MB/s. Maybe they still sit on thousands of these cards.

Machoman · Oct 8, 2015

tweaker said:
Yes I love my Inspire but thinking seriously about switching.

The H920 has a big problem. I may be built conform to FCC/CE laws and therefore is practically unuseable. I mean no one seriousely believes that the CE on the Inpsire RC is more then just 2 letters thats why everyone buys a DJI and no one a Yuneec though all vendors warned me of DJI support and repair times while claiming they have no problems with Yuneec. DJI has still the best products - best for us though they step backwards now with limits and restrictions.

Yuneec H920

Video link Frequency Band 5.8GHz
Video Transmission Distance/Range (Optimum Conditions)
FCC Compliance: Up to 600m (1968.5 ft) CE Compliance: Up to 300m (984.252 ft)

Have fun with 300m range in EU or in other countries or if you can trick it 600m.

tweaker · Oct 8, 2015

Machoman is 300m from real world experience or hearsay?

I take it hose specs are from Yuneec website?

I agree with you that DJI has some great products. But if the limitations you describe with h920 well Yuneec is blown out the water.

I do not believe Yuneec would launch the H920(or any product as it would be a waste of time and money!!) with that limitation as it is an albatross round any plattform they would develop/make and would make them instantly out of the race against any of their rivals(ie DJI).

If its true I stand corrected but I work on logic not hearsay.

JayBurd · Oct 8, 2015

Machoman said:
Its only a small thing and would really be funny if this is the reason but DJI again delivers their 16GB Lexar crap with the Inspire Pro. The problem ist this SD card could not write 100 Mbps. The 633x is read only but Lexar classified it at U1 and not U3 and admits is only writes 10-20 MB/s. Maybe they still sit on thousands of these cards.

I think you got something seriously confused here. The write speed of the cards are rated as MBPS, and the bitrate is mbps, there is a 8x conversion factor here. 100mbps is 12.5MB/s, any decent microsd card can do that, including the lexar 633x.

Machoman · Oct 8, 2015

JayBurd said:
I think you got something seriously confused here. The write speed of the cards are rated as MBPS, and the bitrate is mbps, there is a 8x conversion factor here. 100mbps is 12.5MB/s, any decent microsd card can do that, including the lexar 633x.

Exactly 100mbps is 12,5 MB/s but some of the lexar cards will just write at 10 MB/s some will luckily work with 20 MB/s thats production fluctuation U1 guarantees 10 MB/s not more.

The 10-20 MB/s are not my personal opinion it was the offical answer from Lexar when I pointed to the fact that they HIDE any information of write speed for these cards on their site. I got curious as some vendors listed a write of 10 MB/s in the specs.