UK UK Night Flying

[Jason Woodcock]

Hi folks I spoke directly to CAA on this at a recent event as long as the take off and landing site is illuminated and you have illumination on your aircraft (we use cheap bike mini strobe lights) and of course abide by all other regulations limitations and this is all documented in your ops manual there is NO NEED WHATSOEVER TO PAY SOME ROBBING SCAREMONGERING ORGANISATION to be able to fly at night HOWEVER!! They are looking at potential amendments to this!

 

[craig matthews]

Hi folks I spoke directly to CAA on this at a recent event as long as the take off and landing site is illuminated and you have illumination on your aircraft (we use cheap bike mini strobe lights) and of course abide by all other regulations limitations and this is all documented in your ops manual there is NO NEED WHATSOEVER TO PAY SOME ROBBING SCAREMONGERING ORGANISATION to be able to fly at night HOWEVER!! They are looking at potential amendments to this!

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Phil-RCGeeks]

Hi there, does the use of an illuminated take off/landing site and the provision for a spotter have to be worded in a certain way in the ops manual? I have experience flying at night but have never done so on a commercial job.

There's no right or wrong way to word it. As long as you clearly convey how you will maintain safety during take off/flight/landing you'll be fine

 

[Kestrel aerial Video NI]

Hi I'm looking to get night flight permissions.

I've built in the requirements to my operations manual, however I'm wondering the practicalities of using extra night time LED's.. will this not effect my camera vision red glare. etc.

What do you do?

Could I be so cheeky as to ask for a copy of your ops manual that refers to the night flying? Im just being really lazy here but if I can ever do anything in return...Id be glad to help

 

[bluelight.support]

Guys Im finding this thread really helpful, as I'm starting a not-for-profit organisation for search and rescue and specialist emergency services operations, and night flying was my next assignment. I was under the impression that additional navigation lights and strobes, etc would be needed as well as night flight sections in the operations manual? Is this not the case. While I accept running at 400ft and the 100ft separation between the vfr flight area is already there as a safeguard, i am also conscious working in a potentially active air space with police, helimed and SAR aircraft, that as well as radio communications, navigation, and possible adb transponders would be needed ? Am i missing the point?

Also if anyone has a sample ops manual they would be happy to share, i would be most grateful.

 

[simon@DEF]

You do NOT need to pay anyone to add night ops (you don't even have to pay an NQE to gain your PfCO but that's covered elsewhere).
For those asking to see copies of people's Ops manual sections, you have all the answers here, it can be covered in one page, put fingers to keyboard and you'll find you've done it yourself.

 

[The Editor]

Guys Im finding this thread really helpful, as I'm starting a not-for-profit organisation for search and rescue and specialist emergency services operations, and night flying was my next assignment. I was under the impression that additional navigation lights and strobes, etc would be needed as well as night flight sections in the operations manual? Is this not the case. While I accept running at 400ft and the 100ft separation between the vfr flight area is already there as a safeguard, i am also conscious working in a potentially active air space with police, helimed and SAR aircraft, that as well as radio communications, navigation, and possible adb transponders would be needed ? Am i missing the point?

Also if anyone has a sample ops manual they would be happy to share, i would be most grateful.

Do you currently hold PFAW/PfCO?

If so, a simple addendum to your ops manual will suffice. It does not even have to be lodged until your next SRG1320 submission come renewal, the same way that adding aircraft to your fleet does not require instant notification to the CAA.
You WILL however, need to put your insurance company on notice as this will alter their risk assement for underwriting purposes.
As @simon@DEF mentions and as I have made clear elsewhere on the forum, some not so trustworthy NQE's are falsely stating that night flying needs a separate flight assessment and charge an additional fee. Neither of which is required!

 

[bluelight.support]

Do you currently hold PFAW/PfCO?

We are currently looking for the right provider for training, as I've said elsewhere up until now its been a case of proving concept, before spending out on training etc. Its gone from 2-3 providers to over 30 so far so the market looks to be coming a little cramped. We are looking for more vertical training as opposed to standard camera in the sky so are still trying to get the right one!

 

[simon@DEF]

Do you currently hold PFAW/PfCO?

If so, a simple addendum to your ops manual will suffice. It does not even have to be lodged until your next SRG1320 submission come renewal, the same way that adding aircraft to your fleet does not require instant notification to the CAA. In order to comply with your permissions you will need to have your PfAW/PfCO amended by the CAA. It's a variation to permissions. Remember to reference it in your Ops manual.
You WILL however, need to put your insurance company on notice as this will alter their risk assement for underwriting purposes.
As @simon@DEF mentions and as I have made clear elsewhere on the forum, some not so trustworthy NQE's are falsely stating that night flying needs a separate flight assessment and charge an additional fee. Neither of which is required!

Added a part to clarify that the PfAW/PfCO variation has to be cleared by CAA before commercial night ops are permitted (hope that's OK Ed, just wanted to clarify?).

 

[The Editor]

We are currently looking for the right provider for training, as I've said elsewhere up until now its been a case of proving concept, before spending out on training etc. Its gone from 2-3 providers to over 30 so far so the market looks to be coming a little cramped. We are looking for more vertical training as opposed to standard camera in the sky so are still trying to get the right one!

OK, my confusion. Over on this thread you mentioned that you are getting going on survey work and so far the Inspire was doing well for you - which implies you are already undertaking survey work. Which of course would not be permissable without PcFO in place!
Not yet an owner - advice please for survey work (post #5)

To answer your question more fully - looking for an NQE to provide more than 'Camera' in the sky's as you put it won't happen.
I think you are confusing what a CAA approved NQE actually provides.
They are not interested (nor do they train) for a specific task. They are not concerned whether you are going to be doing aerial mapping, working on Hollywood productions or want to do S&R - that isn't their remit.

Gaining PfCO is all about safety and nothing else. The NQE will give you the knowledge and skill set to be able to understand cause and affect of meteorology, air law, flight planning, national airspace, risk assesement, human factors, legal requirements and a host of other subjects.
They will not teach you to fly in certain way - indeed at your flight assessment stage, no guidance or instruction will be given other than what they require you to do. If you crash, you crash.
All NQE's have mandatory subjects that must be covered and demonstrated to the CAA that their course meets the aviation authority requirements.
It is all about safety and nothing about what you are going to do with your platform after obtaining your permissions etc. - That will be covered in your operations manual which is usually between 40-60 pages.
I hope that clarifies the role of the NQE?

 

[bluelight.support]

OK, my confusion. Over on this thread you mentioned that you are getting going on survey work and so far the Inspire was doing well for you - which implies you are already undertaking survey work.

Only in proving concept, i wanted to prove workflows and process and viability of this before we went along the route of training and manuals, etc.

Now we now the process works and works very well, i am going down the training, insurance, etc before we look at offering the service to the agencies.

 

[The Editor]

Only in proving concept, i wanted to prove workflows and process and viability of this before we went along the route of training and manuals, etc.

Now we now the process works and works very well, i am going down the training, insurance, etc before we look at offering the service to the agencies.

Ah, apologies - understood.
I hope my clarification on NQE function helps.

 

[bluelight.support]

To answer your question more fully - looking for an NQE to provide more than 'Camera' in the sky's as you put it won't happen.

There have been couple of providers who say they provide advanced courses which cover the basics as you suggests above, then go "beyond" this by offering specialist areas. They have apparently trained police force, etc but trying to get syllabuses out of these people to confirm course suitability is rather more difficult!

 

[bluelight.support]

I hope my clarification on NQE function helps.

Yes - its an absolute nightmare!

Its like I spoke to one company about contact between air traffic and S&R aircraft in the same area (for the same incident for example) and their reply is you don't need to do that. My concern was I have spend 10 years working in the emergency services (both operationally and controlling HEMS among others) and found that really concerning. Having crowded airspace during an emergency incident without communication is dangerous!

 

[Peeliewally]

Hi I'm looking to get night flight permissions.

I've built in the requirements to my operations manual, however I'm wondering the practicalities of using extra night time LED's.. will this not effect my camera vision red glare. etc.

What do you do?

Hi there,
Can you advise where theses guidelines can be found? Is this all the requirements or is it a small extract from the full set of night flying guidelines?

Many thanks.

 

[Zade-Aerial]

I can second what the Editor said.
I have a PFAW that allows me to fly at night and having used the Inspire multiple times at night i can confirm the LEDs on the landing gear do not cause glare in your image.

Hi Phil,

I myself have also been led to believe by some companies that a course IS required. Do you know where I can find the relevant information on updating my ops manual to cater for night flying?

Is there any information online on what needs to be included before it's sent off for the CAA. I have my renewal coming up and it would. E great to be able to et this added

 

[Zade-Aerial]

I

Hi Phil,

I myself have also been led to believe by some companies that a course IS required. Do you know where I can find the relevant information on updating my ops manual to cater for night flying?

Is there any information online on what needs to be included before it's sent off for the CAA. I have my renewal coming up and it would. E great to be able to et this added

Ahhhaa! I've just read through this whole article apologies. So basically added the fact that you will be illumating the take off and landing areas and abiding by the current rules for flying should be suffice?

 

[bluelight.support]

So basically added the fact that you will be illumating the take off and landing areas and abiding by the current rules for flying should be suffice?

I expect you would also need to look at mitigating risk, such as day-time survey first, extra spotters. The illumination needs to be white light, so we read that as a real day-light style light, so have a large tripod emergency style LED matrix light which brightens up the whole area, of course, on the slip side of that it destroys your night vision, so it depends on what job you are doing !!

 

[Eyeup Aerial Solutions]

I included additional emphasis on weather. Not so easy to detect an oncoming squall when it's dark so this may limit operations to more settled conditions.

 

[BCF]

From the outset, can I say I have found this thread invaluable and have covered the topic via an additional page in my OSC/Ops Manual.

However, having done some research on the CAA website and reading the ANO I cannot find any reference therein to having to have CAA permission specifically to fly a SUSA (in my case sub 7K Inspire 1 Pro) at night (as defined by CAP393 UK In paragraph (5) ‘day’ means the time from half an hour before sunrise until half an hour after sunset (both times exclusive), sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level.) The only generic point I can think of is the general catch alls of don't fly unless you believe you can do it safely and you have responsibility to ensure safety and not to recklessly or negligently put anyone in harm, etc.

Have I missed something? Could someone point me to the reference?