UK CAA Warns Estate Agents

Scotflieger · Feb 6, 2016

This is an interesting report on the UK CAA warning Estate Agents with the threat of hefty £5000 fines for using amateur drone flyers to take aerial photographs of properties instead of those holding PFAW. Progress at last.

Aviation safety chiefs warn estate agents over drone photographs - Deadline News

The Editor · Feb 6, 2016

Scotflieger said:
This is an report on the UK CAA warning Estate Agents with the threat of hefty £5000 fines for using amateur drone flyers to take aerial photographs of properties instead of those holding PFAW. Progress at last.

Aviation safety chiefs warn estate agents over drone photographs - Deadline News

At bloody last!
I've had 'discussions' with local arrogant Estate Agents over this.
Glad to see things happening.

Alastair · Feb 6, 2016

The Editor said:
At bloody last!
I've had 'discussions' with local arrogant Estate Agents over this.
Glad to see things happening.

The key will be enforcement though.

Haakon · Feb 6, 2016

The original article was Nov 2014...

The Editor · Feb 6, 2016

Haakon said:
The original article was Nov 2014...

Well come on.....its the CAA. That's as fast as they can move!

Meta4 · Feb 6, 2016

Scotflieger said:
This is an interesting report on the UK CAA warning Estate Agents with the threat of hefty £5000 fines for using amateur drone flyers to take aerial photographs of properties instead of those holding PFAW. Progress at last.

The article that is from November 2014, (prior to the release of the Inspire or Phantom 3) doesn't sayt that at all.
It's saying the CAA warned real estate agents against using drones themselves (if unlicensed) - not against using unlicenced drone operators.

The CAA's core business is to manage aviation safety, not check on who people are buying photos from.

Haakon · Feb 7, 2016

Yes because, and I've met some estate agents who believe this, they believe there is a loophole that says if they don't charge for it they can do it outside of the requirement for a CAA PFAW. Of course when I pointed out that use would be seen as part of their business offering and therefore very much a commercial operation they brush it off. Worryingly I think this mistaken belief had been peddled to them by some unscrupulous drone vendors...

One such individual confessed to not being able to do it anymore as his drone landed without warning (his words) in the middle of a busy high street and was crushed by a passing car

Scotflieger · Feb 7, 2016

Haakon said:
Yes because, and I've met some estate agents who believe this, they believe there is a loophole that says if they don't charge for it they can do it outside of the requirement for a CAA PFAW. Of course when I pointed out that use would be seen as part of their business offering and therefore very much a commercial operation they brush it off. Worryingly I think this mistaken belief had been peddled to them by some unscrupulous drone vendors...

One such individual confessed to not being able to do it anymore as his drone landed without warning (his words) in the middle of a busy high street and was crushed by a passing car

As you correctly say they are wrong. It is whether they are gaining commercial reward for the drone output. In their case they are selling property on the back of it.

What was the idiot doing flying over a high street when there was traffic in the first place? He definitely got his just rewards.

AllanM · Feb 7, 2016

Cat amongst the pigeons...

An individual (no PFAW) agrees with a farmer that they will survey his crops in exchange for 'flying time' on his land does - is that legal?

Mad_angler1 · Feb 7, 2016

Let's say a farmer wants to use one him self to survey his land or monitor remote live stock all over his own land, is PFAW required ?

He is receiving commercial gain by using it to help his business however he would have had to drive to the same locations with out the drone to do the same work so is there a reward over what he would have got anyway ?

Phatzo · Feb 7, 2016

here in hungary when flying over private property no permission or licence is needed. if it is not your area you need permission from the owner.
when it is a public area (city or village area) you normally have to get permission from the hungarian aviation authoraties and the village or city authoraties to fly.
that does cost a bit and you have to reserve a date at least 21 days before hand for time and place.
unfortunatley no licence or acredited personell around yet...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ISP5557 · Feb 7, 2016

Mad_angler1 said:
Let's say a farmer wants to use one him self to survey his land or monitor remote live stock all over his own land, is PFAW required ?

He is receiving commercial gain by using it to help his business however he would have had to drive to the same locations with out the drone to do the same work so is there a reward over what he would have got anyway ?

Don't know how it is across the pond, but the FAA is letting farmers in the US use it for their own property as long as they are the one flying. As soon as you incorporate a third party flyer they are calling it for profit, and requireing 333.

tweaker · Feb 7, 2016

UK Estate agents are paying drone operators? Really?

My experience is that Estate Agents 99.9% are NFI in paying for anything!!

Estate Agents are that tight they could peel an orange in their pockets.

On the other hand when handling their clients the charges they charge are beyond the pale!!

YMMV.

The Editor · Feb 7, 2016

tweaker said:
UK Estate agents are paying drone operators? Really?

My experience is that Estate Agents 99.9% are NFI in paying for anything!!

Estate Agents are that tight they could peel an orange in their pockets.

On the other hand when handling their clients the charges they charge are beyond the pale!!

YMMV.

OK......I'm just going to see if I can disagree with any of those comments......
Thinking...............
Still thinking................

Nope!

turramin · Feb 7, 2016

AllanM said:
Cat amongst the pigeons...

An individual (no PFAW) agrees with a farmer that they will survey his crops in exchange for 'flying time' on his land does - is that legal?

Depends on what the survey was used for I think? If it was just to give an aerial view of the crops then it would be fine but if the data was used (for example) to determine weed cover for targeted spraying or similar then it would be for commercial gain and potentially illegal.

Mad_angler1 said:
Let's say a farmer wants to use one him self to survey his land or monitor remote live stock all over his own land, is PFAW required ?

He is receiving commercial gain by using it to help his business however he would have had to drive to the same locations with out the drone to do the same work so is there a reward over what he would have got anyway ?

Yes PFAW would definitely be required as the farmer would be receiving commercial gain. This is exactly why I am currently doing my RPAs qualification, we're very keen to use UAVs to increase efficiency and productivity on our farm. There is an excellent and very informative write up on UAV use in UK agriculure in this months Arable Farming magazine if anyone's interested.

Mad_angler1 · Feb 7, 2016

turramin said:
Yes PFAW would definitely be required as the farmer would be receiving commercial gain. This is exactly why I am currently doing my RPAs qualification, we're very keen to use UAVs to increase efficiency and productivity on our farm. There is an excellent and very informative write up on UAV use in UK agriculure in this months Arable Farming magazine if anyone's interested.

Yes but is there actual gain, with out the drone he would just have got on this quad and gone to look,

The end result is the same,he has counted his sheep or monitored his crop, the only gain if any would be a saving of time and thats not guaranteed as multiple flights, charging batteries act all would be required so no real gain, fuel saving on quad offset against electricity to charge batteries ect.

Its an interesting one in my eyes, may not be to others

, its certainly arguable in court imo

SimonMW · Feb 10, 2016

A farm is a business, and if the farmer is using the UAV for business purposes, then it is commercial. It is helping him make a commercial gain by improving his crops. Makes no difference if he could have got on his quad bike instead. He couldn't have done the same inspection or gained the same advantage unless he used the UAV.

turramin · Feb 10, 2016

SimonMW said:
A farm is a business, and if the farmer is using the UAV for business purposes, then it is commercial. It is helping him make a commercial gain by improving his crops. Makes no difference if he could have got on his quad bike instead. He couldn't have done the same inspection or gained the same advantage unless he used the UAV.

Exactly how I see it, it's not really a grey area. In some cases it could actually be more expensive for me to use a UAV to do certain jobs, initially anyway, but that makes no difference I am still getting "valuable consideration" by using the UAV.

phantomjoy · Feb 13, 2016

In my opinion what needs to happen is that clients are held responsible for using an un licensed operator. The BBC when using an operator outside of the corporation have to carry out due diligence on their supplier. Do they hold a PFAW? Do they have the correct insurance in place? Are they qualified to undertake the job and have the necessary experience.

The CAA do not currently have the powers to prosecute the end client for using an unlicensed operator, but doing this would stop the cowboy operators - therefore making it safer for all. Would protect those who have invested in gaining a PFAW and would ensure insurance is in place.

So the simple solution, hold all in the chain - from pilot, to agency to end client responsible.

This would apply to all types of commercial operations, not just Estate Agents.

STClassic01 · Feb 13, 2016

Mad_angler1 said:
Let's say a farmer wants to use one him self to survey his land or monitor remote live stock all over his own land, is PFAW required ?

He is receiving commercial gain by using it to help his business however he would have had to drive to the same locations with out the drone to do the same work so is there a reward over what he would have got anyway ?

If a farmer wanted to use a drone to keep an eye on his property and/or livestock he can without any permits or license. He is exempt from the law because he is "farming" growing produce. as long as it is on his farm. I am pretty sure if you do a job for a farmer without compensation. you do not need permits or license to do so. Farmers are exempt from many things even DOT regulations, with certain limits.