UK Temp Permission before full granted?

[Stoo1701]

Hi Guys,
I'm just about to undertake my training for permission, but have been offered a potentially very lucrative contract on a civil engineering project near me for regular photo's and video flyover work. I need to be able to get going on this bu have just read that the CAA are currently taking up to 90 days to grant permission.

This job would be on 1 controlled site, would not involve flying near any public, buildings etc as would be over fields, and not directly over employees working on the project (road building).

Is there some form of preemptive or temporary permission I might be able to get once I have completed training, have an operations manual and fulfil all other requirements in terms of health and safety while I am waiting for the permission to be granted?

Could I take the shots necy and hold billing until permission has arrived, doing the work as a 'hobbyist' until permission is granted?

Any help in how to get around this without breaking rules etc would be really helpful, this contract could launch my business in a big way, and I can't afford to lose it due to waiting 3 months for permission to arrive.

I could do the work for free until permission arrives, I could attend after the site is clear of workers, maybe they could simply keep hold of payment until i'm allowed to take it? What do you guys think?

Thank in advance, i'm pulling my hair out now !!

 

[The Editor]

Hi Guys,
I'm just about to undertake my training for permission, but have been offered a potentially very lucrative contract on a civil engineering project near me for regular photo's and video flyover work. I need to be able to get going on this bu have just read that the CAA are currently taking up to 90 days to grant permission.

This job would be on 1 controlled site, would not involve flying near any public, buildings etc as would be over fields, and not directly over employees working on the project (road building).

Is there some form of preemptive or temporary permission I might be able to get once I have completed training, have an operations manual and fulfil all other requirements in terms of health and safety while I am waiting for the permission to be granted?

Could I take the shots necy and hold billing until permission has arrived, doing the work as a 'hobbyist' until permission is granted?

Any help in how to get around this without breaking rules etc would be really helpful, this contract could launch my business in a big way, and I can't afford to lose it due to waiting 3 months for permission to arrive.

I could do the work for free until permission arrives, I could attend after the site is clear of workers, maybe they could simply keep hold of payment until i'm allowed to take it? What do you guys think?

Thank in advance, i'm pulling my hair out now !!

Simple answer - NO.

You are not deemed to have permission from the CAA until you actually receive your PFAW. There is no 'provisional' style certificate or permission.
The problem you run up against is without PFAW you have no commercial insurance.
Therefore, if you were doing commercial work there would be no indemnification to the client or third parties in the event for an incident.
Additionally, I would be very surprised (and a little worried) that any building/construction client is not insisting on seeing proof of CAA authorisation together with a copy of your public liability policy!

If you haven't actually done the ground school training, flight assessment and ops manual I'm afraid it is a case of wait for the PFAW.

 

[Stoo1701]

Simple answer - NO.

You are not deemed to have permission from the CAA until you actually receive your PFAW. There is no 'provisional' style certificate or permission.
The problem you run up against is without PFAW you have no commercial insurance.
Therefore, if you were doing commercial work there would be no indemnification to the client or third parties in the event for an incident.
Additionally, I would be very surprised (and a little worried) that any building/construction client is not insisting on seeing proof of CAA authorisation together with a copy of your public liability policy!

If you haven't actually done the ground school training, flight assessment and ops manual I'm afraid it is a case of wait for the PFAW.

Thanks for the reply, re: your concerns.. the contractor has an incredibly detailed process for approval, and this would certainly involve seeing that I have the relevant documentation to begin work. so no need for concern on that front, its a £70mil project and these guys are legit as they come !

I have currently £2mil public liability as a 'hobby' pilot. Commercial work aside (as I would receive no payment) if I had the sites permission to take photo's, and did this from an off-site position maintaining LOS etc, could I take these shots as a hobbyist and simply 'give' them to the contractor in the meantime? This could be done when the site is closed. Would it be permissible to invoice them at a later date for work carried out to date? (once PFAW is approved).

 

[The Editor]

Thanks for the reply, re: your concerns.. the contractor has an incredibly detailed process for approval, and this would certainly involve seeing that I have the relevant documentation to begin work. so no need for concern on that front, its a £70mil project and these guys are legit as they come !

I have currently £2mil public liability as a 'hobby' pilot. Commercial work aside (as I would receive no payment) if I had the sites permission to take photo's, and did this from an off-site position maintaining LOS etc, could I take these shots as a hobbyist and simply 'give' them to the contractor in the meantime? This could be done when the site is closed. Would it be permissible to invoice them at a later date for work carried out to date? (once PFAW is approved).

This has actually cropped up a few times previously and as absurd as it sounds the CAA consider it commercial work if valuable consideration is received anytime after the work is completed.
So in your scenario they would look upon that as commercial work undertaken which (at a later date) payment was made.
I don't make the rules BTW the way - I'm only quoting what the CAA has said previously.

I understand your frustration but believe me, we've probably all been there previously.

Just be careful utilising a 'hobby' type insurance which I assume is BMFA or FPV.CO.UK. Neither of these will actually cover you for undertaking commercial activity (paid or not) so you may come a little unstuck when your potential client looks over the documents.

I'm not trying to be a kiljoy here, just want to make you aware of the potential problems you may face on this one.

 

[IrishSights]

Thanks for the reply, re: your concerns.. the contractor has an incredibly detailed process for approval, and this would certainly involve seeing that I have the relevant documentation to begin work. so no need for concern on that front, its a £70mil project and these guys are legit as they come !

I have currently £2mil public liability as a 'hobby' pilot. Commercial work aside (as I would receive no payment) if I had the sites permission to take photo's, and did this from an off-site position maintaining LOS etc, could I take these shots as a hobbyist and simply 'give' them to the contractor in the meantime? This could be done when the site is closed. Would it be permissible to invoice them at a later date for work carried out to date? (once PFAW is approved).

You could get another PFAW holder to do it in the meantime and you mark it up until you get your legalities tied up.

 

[Stoo1701]

Not at all mate, that's why I came here to ask.. So my only option would be to carry out the work for free until PFAW arrives, and adjust the remaining contract to account for the losses in the free period...

That way I would need no further insurance as would not be operating on the site, only from outside it where I AM permitted to fly, and wouldn't be charging for any work until my PFAW arrives. If I do £2k's worth of work for eg. , I could balance that into the remaining contract once it begins in earnest.

Just seen your reply Irishsights, thank you.. If I took this avenue am I not leaving myself open to a usurper? otherwise seems like a viable alternative also..

Appreciate the input guys, please keep it coming !

 

[Plingboot]

Unfortunately, valuable consideration extends to doing it for free, in that you're gaining valuable contacts, sample work for your showreel, etc etc. Valuable consideration is a vague enough term to be interpreted as required when push comes to shove and you as the operator without a PFAW will always be on the back foot in that situation.

Your hobby insurance will also pick things apart and see through the "only doing it for free" line should you need to claim.

You're definitely not alone on this one and I had the same issues - the result being to pass on jobs at the time.

AS IrishSights says, you could use a company with a PFAW in the short term (hint) ;-) and trust that they'd not shaft you long term.

 

[Stoo1701]

10-15m Monopole for aerial shots until PFAW, I should be able to clear this with the contractor, no CAA involvement.. job done?

I would be willing to take PM's outlining prices for 1 flyover video of a 6.3km road length HD video, would accept 5-10 videos that I could stitch & post process.. Can anyone give me a ballpark price for this? (UK only!) also, I will accept prices for photography of same. I know it's a little vague, and at this stage i'm not willing to disclose location etc for obvious reasons but any other info required to estimate for this, let me know Plingboot? IrishSights? If folks come back with agreeable prices, maybe we could work something out to our mutual benefit?

 

[The Editor]

10-15m Monopole for aerial shots until PFAW, I should be able to clear this with the contractor, no CAA involvement.. job done?

I would be willing to take PM's outlining prices for 1 flyover video of a 6.3km road length HD video, would accept 5-10 videos that I could stitch & post process.. Can anyone give me a ballpark price for this? (UK only!) also, I will accept prices for photography of same. I know it's a little vague, and at this stage i'm not willing to disclose location etc for obvious reasons but any other info required to estimate for this, let me know Plingboot? IrishSights? If folks come back with agreeable prices, maybe we could work something out to our mutual benefit?

That might be a sensible option (for now) - you would also get to work with a PFAW holder closely so he can take you through the mission planning, site survey and risk assesement procedures as well.
I might be willing to do this for you depending on when and where in the country it was.

 

[IrishSights]

10-15m Monopole for aerial shots until PFAW, I should be able to clear this with the contractor, no CAA involvement.. job done?

I would be willing to take PM's outlining prices for 1 flyover video of a 6.3km road length HD video, would accept 5-10 videos that I could stitch & post process.. Can anyone give me a ballpark price for this? (UK only!) also, I will accept prices for photography of same. I know it's a little vague, and at this stage i'm not willing to disclose location etc for obvious reasons but any other info required to estimate for this, let me know Plingboot? IrishSights? If folks come back with agreeable prices, maybe we could work something out to our mutual benefit?

Big bit o water between me and you,so I'm out. I don't think anyone would give you a price as full pre site survey, onsite survey and risk assessment would need to be done. To do that the site would need to be known. Most of us have reputations to protect so pick folks you get to know.

 

[Plingboot]

Started a forum conversation with you - assume this is like the pm's on other forums.

 

[MrDrone]

I have submitted SRG1320 last week and wondering if anybody know how long will it take to have the PfAW issued .. is it more 3-4 weeks or 8-9weeks ?

 

[Stoo1701]

Bad news MrDrone.. CAA website states 28 days normally but currently taking up to 90 days for granting the PFAW.. Which is why I started this thread.. It's going to cripple the growth of our industry if they don't take on some more staff and get their collective sh*t together. :/

 

[The Editor]

Bad news MrDrone.. CAA website states 28 days normally but currently taking up to 90 days for granting the PFAW.. Which is why I started this thread.. It's going to cripple the growth of our industry if they don't take on some more staff and get their collective sh*t together. :/

Was the same last year, and the year before. Then it quietens down and they get back to a 10 day turnaround.

 

[MrDrone]

yep

 

[Michael Morris]

Bad news MrDrone.. CAA website states 28 days normally but currently taking up to 90 days for granting the PFAW.. Which is why I started this thread.. It's going to cripple the growth of our industry if they don't take on some more staff and get their collective sh*t together. :/

Do you have the link to this information re PFAW application turnaround. Many thanks

EDITED: As far as I can see the 90 days turnaround refers to an application for NQE status. Can't see on the CAA site where it applies to PFAW applications.

 

[Stoo1701]

Your absolutely right Mike, my apologies for setting a sight panic amongst the residents ! (MrDrone !) 90 Days is for NQE status, the PFAW is still quoting 28days.. Thank you for noticing, checking that it's took a huge weight off my mind..

 

[MrDrone]

No panic here
Looking at end of July ho hum ...