UK Euro-USC Charges.

[Oscen]

I thought I would share a small part of the email I received yesterday after my Ops Manual was accepted.

".....before booking your practical assessment which can be booked in Somerset, Kineton or Burton upon Trent by following the link provided below.......Please note that the Burton upon Trent site may offer earlier availability than the other options. Please also note that flight operations examinations booked at the Norton St. Phillip site or Ireland and Scotland carry an additional surcharge of £200 + VAT."

I live in Scotland, these charges have never been mentioned to me before despite sitting my ground school training in Scotland, the closest place for me that wont charge another £240 is a 600 mile round trip.

I know Euro-USC is a bit of a recurring joke here with the more experienced members but I feel this is useful information for anyone thinking about using them that lives anywhere but central and southern England.

 

[simon@DEF]

I thought I would share a small part of the email I received yesterday after my Ops Manual was accepted.

".....before booking your practical assessment which can be booked in Somerset, Kineton or Burton upon Trent by following the link provided below.......Please note that the Burton upon Trent site may offer earlier availability than the other options. Please also note that flight operations examinations booked at the Norton St. Phillip site or Ireland and Scotland carry an additional surcharge of £200 + VAT."

I live in Scotland, these charges have never been mentioned to me before despite sitting my ground school training in Scotland, the closest place for me that wont charge another £240 is a 600 mile round trip.

I know Euro-USC is a bit of a recurring joke here with the more experienced members but I feel this is useful information for anyone thinking about using them that lives anywhere but central and southern England.

BMFA flight test..... £33 and includes insurance. Double check that the CAA still allow as they were due to review it all. Hth.

 

[Scotflieger]

I used Resource Group and my Ops Manual checking and flight assessment were included in my course price. However, I did have a 14-16 hour round trip plus hotels costs from NE Scotland to Newcastle and Richmond, North Yorkshire respectively.

 

[Oscen]

Simon - That's very interesting, I will look into it and see if there is a cheaper alternative. Do you know if these are available in Scotland?

Scott - The flight assessment with Euro is also included in the price, it's just that I was told I could sit my practical exam in Scotland the same as the theory, it isn't until now that I have been made aware that there is actually a hidden charge for this. The price doesn't change should I pick one of the three locations as per the email, but then as you say, there are major costs involved with the logistics. Fuel, hotel etc.

Maybe I'm just moaning a little but I feel this should have been made clear earlier on, perhaps with that info I would have chosen a more local NQE.

 

[The Editor]

Good to see EuroUSC are not letting their guard down.
I actually find it astounding they are still in business when they pull stunts like this. The word soon gets round (social media, forums like this etc).
People will only be taken for mugs for so long and then they start voting with their feet and go elsewhere.

 

[Oscen]

I thought I would see you have some input on this sooner or later Editor

On a serious matter though. I'm trying to go through this logically. Any input appreciated.

I have emailed the CAA UAV enquiries email address basically asking what is actually required:

1. Is the practical exam required to be passed before I can apply for my PFAW?
2. If not is there other evidence I can provide that would allow me to gain the PFAW?
3. If I must sit the practical exam, am I able to do this with another NQE?
4. Would the practical exam with the BMFA be adequate?

Thoughts?

 

[simon@DEF]

From CAA website, just checked, BMFA qualification still shown....CAP 722

 

[Scotflieger]

I thought I would see you have some input on this sooner or later Editor

On a serious matter though. I'm trying to go through this logically. Any input appreciated.

I have emailed the CAA UAV enquiries email address basically asking what is actually required:

1. Is the practical exam required to be passed before I can apply for my PFAW?
2. If not is there other evidence I can provide that would allow me to gain the PFAW?
3. If I must sit the practical exam, am I able to do this with another NQE?
4. Would the practical exam with the BMFA be adequate?

Thoughts?

I sat my written exam on the last day of the ground school. Why would any organisation not do the same?

The CAA UAV office will require proof that you have successfully passed your ground training from your NQE and that includes the exam and flight assessment. They will not accept your PFAW application without this endorsement. You could cut your losses and go to another NQE but you would need to pay again. I can't answer the BMFA question.

 

[The Editor]

I thought I would see you have some input on this sooner or later Editor

On a serious matter though. I'm trying to go through this logically. Any input appreciated.

I have emailed the CAA UAV enquiries email address basically asking what is actually required:

1. Is the practical exam required to be passed before I can apply for my PFAW?
2. If not is there other evidence I can provide that would allow me to gain the PFAW?
3. If I must sit the practical exam, am I able to do this with another NQE?
4. Would the practical exam with the BMFA be adequate?

Thoughts?

Agree with @Scotflieger
The flight assessment has to be 'signed off' by your or one of the NQE's. The reason for this is it is intrinsically linked to your procedures in your ops manual which would have gone through an acceptance and sign off process.
Once you have your ground school qualification (exam) that's basically part 1 done and dusted.
When you come to write your ops manual, as I'm sure you are aware there are checklists and emergency procedures written into that manual.
The practical flight assessment is not only there to satisfy the instructor you can actually fly the aircraft, it is used as a test of your knowledge of your own emergency procedures and to ensure you are able to action them without hesitation or having to refer to a manual.
As long as you pass your flight assessment it is signed off by your instructor along with any comments and recommendations which then is included when you fill out your SRG1320 for submission to the CAA to request PFAW.
Hope that helps.

 

[Oscen]

There does seem to be some grey area here. As Simon says above CAP 722 does state that BMFA cert is sufficient. Cut and paste from CAP 722 Section 4.10 below:

As the SUA industry has developed, the CAA has been increasingly asked to accept alternative qualifications and methods of demonstrating pilot competency other than those provided through the NQE route. Many recent applicants for a Permission have formal aviation qualifications, hobbyist certificates or recent flight experience that are highly relevant for fulfilling the critical elements set out in paragraph 4.7 above. An analysis of the critical elements points towards the practical flight assessment as being the single most essential of the elements as small unmanned multirotor and fixed-wing aircraft have unique flight and control systems and characteristics. Unless an applicant has already been objectively assessed by a third-party (such as through the British Model Flying Association (BMFA) certificate system), then there still exists a need for applicants to complete this critical element through an independent assessment.

I spoke to someone at the BMFA today and they said I can sit the B certificate free of charge if I have already completed my ground school with Euro.

If the CAA just require evidence to show that the pilot is safe and capable then it would make sense (to me) that the ground school certificate and operation manual is enough to show theoretical knowledge and the BMFA B certificate and copies of flight logs could be used to demonstrate practical ability.

I suppose I can only wait to hear back from CAA and see what they say, unless of course someone has asked them this specific question before.

 

[Scotflieger]

@Oscen I wish you all the luck with your theory but do not expect to hear back from the CAA. They do not respond to individual queries - they are too busy processing applications sponsored by NQEs.

 

[The Editor]

There does seem to be some grey area here. As Simon says above CAP 722 does state that BMFA cert is sufficient. Cut and paste from CAP 722 Section 4.10 below:

As the SUA industry has developed, the CAA has been increasingly asked to accept alternative qualifications and methods of demonstrating pilot competency other than those provided through the NQE route. Many recent applicants for a Permission have formal aviation qualifications, hobbyist certificates or recent flight experience that are highly relevant for fulfilling the critical elements set out in paragraph 4.7 above. An analysis of the critical elements points towards the practical flight assessment as being the single most essential of the elements as small unmanned multirotor and fixed-wing aircraft have unique flight and control systems and characteristics. Unless an applicant has already been objectively assessed by a third-party (such as through the British Model Flying Association (BMFA) certificate system), then there still exists a need for applicants to complete this critical element through an independent assessment.

I spoke to someone at the BMFA today and they said I can sit the B certificate free of charge if I have already completed my ground school with Euro.

If the CAA just require evidence to show that the pilot is safe and capable then it would make sense (to me) that the ground school certificate and operation manual is enough to show theoretical knowledge and the BMFA B certificate and copies of flight logs could be used to demonstrate practical ability.

I suppose I can only wait to hear back from CAA and see what they say, unless of course someone has asked them this specific question before.

Interesting - nobody tell EuroUSC this or they will start charging for people wanting to use BMFA.
On a serious note, it will be interesting to see what response you get as I would say if this IS acceptable then the BMFA instructor will sign off your competency after the flight assessment. Presumably, he/she will also have to familiarise themselves with your emergency procedures in order to test you on them?

 

[The Editor]

Let's just say.... I happen to know the multi rotor A test is sufficient....

Have you submitted a PFAW and been successful using this method?
If so, please post confirmation so that other members may benefit.
Thank You.

 

[Oscen]

Scott - Sorry If I wasn't clear earlier on, I completed my theory back in September on the last day of ground school, I have been sitting on my Ops Manual for a while as I couldn't afford to pay the the remaining invoice for Euro to review it in order to book my practical exam. As you can see, money is an issue, part of the reason I'm miffed about having to pay another £240 after just managing to pay the last invoice.

Also, I did get the feeling I wouldn't get a reply for a while, I was hoping I would get something back eventually though. I copied as many CAA email addresses as I could find in

This is why I'm scratching my head... why on earth would I and everyone else here go through all the trouble and cost of using a NQE when CAP 722 clearly say it isn't required. Have I really just robbed myself of a small fortune??

 

[The Editor]

Scott - Sorry If I wasn't clear earlier on, I completed my theory back in September on the last day of ground school, I have been sitting on my Ops Manual for a while as I couldn't afford to pay the the remaining invoice for Euro to review it in order to book my practical exam. As you can see, money is an issue, part of the reason I'm miffed about having to pay another £240 after just managing to pay the last invoice.

Also, I did get the feeling I wouldn't get a reply for a while, I was hoping I would get something back eventually though. I copied as many CAA email addresses as I could find in

This is why I'm scratching my head... why on earth would I and everyone else here go through all the trouble and cost of using a NQE when CAP 722 clearly say it isn't required. Have I really just robbed myself of a small fortune??

Because nearly all NQE's I know do NOT charge anything extra for the flight assessment and all certificates.

 

[Oscen]

Yeah I see what you mean, I'm not defending Euro here, however it WAS made clear to me before I started that the total amount was split into 2 parts, pay the first part and sit ground school, pay the second part for them to review the manual, book and sit the practical. I checked this cost against the other NQE's and it was roughly the same total so I'm not moaning there. Obviously the extra charge to change the location of the exam wasn't made clear.

What I meant in my previous post that from what I gather from CAP 722 is that basically a BMFA qualification (free, or at least very cheap) and an operations manual (free) are sufficient for a PFAW to be granted.

Even if the case is that ground school has to be completed and the BMFA cert gained, then by Euro USC standards, I could just pay them for the ground school and keep my money I paid towards the review of the ops manual and practical.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[The Editor]

Yeah I see what you mean, I'm not defending Euro here, however it WAS made clear to me before I started that the total amount was split into 2 parts, pay the first part and sit ground school, pay the second part for them to review the manual, book and sit the practical. I checked this cost against the other NQE's and it was roughly the same total so I'm not moaning there. Obviously the extra charge to change the location of the exam wasn't made clear.

What I meant in my previous post that from what I gather from CAP 722 is that basically a BMFA qualification (free, or at least very cheap) and an operations manual (free) are sufficient for a PFAW to be granted.

Even if the case is that ground school has to be completed and the BMFA cert gained, then by Euro USC standards, I could just pay them for the ground school and keep my money I paid towards the review of the ops manual and practical.

Hope that makes sense.

Ahh, OK, I see what you are saying.......
Your situation is slightly different since you have already sat the groundschool part AND had your ops manual approved.
The problem with anyone submitting an ops manual cold to the CAA with their PFAW request would be that unless the ops manual is spot on the request will get thrown out and rejected. Since it's £113 a pop this could get expensive for first timers just trying to get an ops manual through (and the CAA will give no guidance as to where the problems are).
As you have completed and passed ground school AND have an approved ops manual then I guess you could go the route of BMFA flight assessment (assuming that information is correct)

 

[simon@DEF]

Have you submitted a PFAW and been successful using this method?
If so, please post confirmation so that other members may benefit.
Thank You.

My PFAW is with the CAA tech department apparently, I posted my application beginning of March, hoping to hear any day soon.
I've had a lot of time to go through the application, written my ops manual, passed BMFA multi rotor flight test and sent application. All taken 3 months of research and grafting.
In theory I've ticked all the boxes required by CAA.... I'll let you know...

 

[Oscen]

Very valid point.

I keep reading the wording of CAP 722 but regardless of the sections,the table Simon posted earlier from page 47 says it all.

BMFA "A" or "B" certificate = 2 hours flight time logged in the last 3 months to be accepted for PFAW.

Perhaps someone should think about opening a small business doing nothing else than reviewing ops manuals for £20 a pop , from what I see, the BMFA cert and Ops manual are all thats required.

 

[Oscen]

Well played Simon, I'm very interested to see what happens.

Annoyed I didn't spot this earlier before spending all that money.