UK Advice on potential commerciality to footage please

[Storm Chaser]

I would appreciate advice on this. I only fly as a hobby with no commercial licence. I have liability insurance for private use only. I used to fly an Inspire 1 but now a Phantom 4.

I work for a government body in the UK. A member of the organisation has approached me and offered me the chance to produce some raw footage of one of the government bodies premises. The footage would be handed to a private company who have the contract for the production. The aim of the production is to make it available to foreign governments considering using the premises for training packages on offer.

The site is large and bordered on 3 sides by an industrial estate and the final side by a woodland. There would be no problem obviously of obtaining written permission to fly on the site. I would have the freedom to complete the filming in my work or private time. If the route of the filming required me to fly close to the border of the site I.e. Within 50 of neighbouring industrial sites, I image there would be no issue obtaining the owners permission.

I don't know the full legalities of what constitutes a "commercial purpose" to the CAA in the UK necessitating a commercial licence and commercial insurance for this project.

I would love to undertake the work, as it could be a foot in the door to more projects and ultimate justifying spending £1600 on a commercial licence and £500 a year on commercial insurance but am worried that this is a clear case of me needing to commercial licence to undertake the project even though I would not be getting paid.

Thanks for any advice.




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[pixl45]

@The Editor @IrishSights

 

[IrishSights]

I think this would be regarded by the CAA as Aerial work needing a permission. You would also require Aviation Public Liability Insurance as hobby insurance would not cover it. The underwriters would very quickly say that this is not hobby flying. To get commercial PL insurance you would need to have a PfAW.

It is not just monetary gain the CAA would be looking at. You would be 'gaining' by hopefully getting more work and gaining reputation with the client. Your footage which you would take would be used for commercial purposes as you say.

I think whoever asked you to do this is walking a very dangerous line representing a government and accountable body. He is actually asking you to break the law - he could get sacked if proved.

My opinion, as presented, is that it is an extremely high risk venture and is Aerial Work requiring a CAA permit.

Looking at this another way, from the position of bona-fide PFAW holders seeing this going on would be highly likely to report it. But as it's only hypothetical I can understand you asking

Other opinions may vary of course.

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

 

[DennisR]

I would appreciate advice on this. I only fly as a hobby with no commercial licence. I have liability insurance for private use only. I used to fly an Inspire 1 but now a Phantom 4.

I work for a government body in the UK. A member of the organisation has approached me and offered me the chance to produce some raw footage of one of the government bodies premises. The footage would be handed to a private company who have the contract for the production. The aim of the production is to make it available to foreign governments considering using the premises for training packages on offer.

The site is large and bordered on 3 sides by an industrial estate and the final side by a woodland. There would be no problem obviously of obtaining written permission to fly on the site. I would have the freedom to complete the filming in my work or private time. If the route of the filming required me to fly close to the border of the site I.e. Within 50 of neighbouring industrial sites, I image there would be no issue obtaining the owners permission.

I don't know the full legalities of what constitutes a "commercial purpose" to the CAA in the UK necessitating a commercial licence and commercial insurance for this project.

I would love to undertake the work, as it could be a foot in the door to more projects and ultimate justifying spending £1600 on a commercial licence and £500 a year on commercial insurance but am worried that this is a clear case of me needing to commercial licence to undertake the project even though I would not be getting paid.

Thanks for any advice.




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You can't do it legally but you already know that. If you call it a hobby then the client will not be able to post it online. Its black and white. If you were in my country I would report you. if a commercial license only costs that much then its a third of the price I had to pay here. Household insurance wont cover it and you wont get any insurance if you are not licensed.

 

[The Editor]

You can't do it legally but you already know that. If you call it a hobby then the client will not be able to post it online. Its black and white. If you were in my country I would report you. if a commercial license only costs that much then its a third of the price I had to pay here. Household insurance wont cover it and you wont get any insurance if you are not licensed.

Dennis, will you stop with your 'I would/will report you' attitude to everybody who asks a question whether a shoot/scenario is viable or not? It is becoming tiresome and your repetitive posts about how you will report everybody is wearing thin.
The OP was asking advice whether the shoot could be undertaken without breaking any laws here in the UK (Not Australia).
He asked advice, he didn't say he was going to go ahead and do it!

You are not familiar with PFAW or CAP722 166/7 so please do not offer advice on same.

 

[Storm Chaser]

Thanks for the advice. It confirmed my suspicions that it was a no go from the start. I turned the project down early yesterday morning and asked the guy to keep me in mind for any opportunities that arise in the future once I have my commercial licence.
To that end, does anyone have any advice regarding pathways and companies to achieve CAA approval to undertake projects such as that proposed to me?

Thanks for your time.


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[DennisR]

Dennis, will you stop with your 'I would/will report you' attitude to everybody who asks a question whether a shoot/scenario is viable or not? It is becoming tiresome and your repetitive posts about how you will report everybody is wearing thin.
The OP was asking advice whether the shoot could be undertaken without breaking any laws here in the UK (Not Australia).
He asked advice, he didn't say he was going to go ahead and do it!

You are not familiar with PFAW or CAP722 166/7 so please do not offer advice on same.

These people know the rules but keep on asking. Why dont you get on their back and put a stop to this nonsense. You are encouraging them to break the rules by allowing posting of videos that are shot above crowds and 3 miles out. Why do you allow this? You like to kick me in the guts because I believe in following the rules for safety and to save those of us that fly for a living from being banned. I paid my dues to get a license. Why can't others? You are the moderator. You also have a responsibility to look after our industry. It doesn't matter what country by the way. There is no law that allows drones to fly over the top of crowds or to make money from a drone without being licensed. There is no insurance company on the planet that will insure a drone for commercial work without a license. By the way, you say that you dont like the way I say I will report them? Thats amazing.I dont just say it. I DO it. Anyone I see in this country that is flying will get reported if I suspect they are not licensed. I have reported 15 already. Im proud of it even if it does go against your grain. I sent an email off to 3 drone operators last week asking them if they were licensed. 2 in fact were but the other not. Why do we have to spend 10k to get a license if these people can just go out and fly for real estate companies and similar with no respect whatsoever? You tell me.

 

[IrishSights]

These people know the rules but keep on asking. Why dont you get on their back and put a stop to this nonsense. You are encouraging them to break the rules by allowing posting of videos that are shot above crowds and 3 miles out. Why do you allow this? You like to kick me in the guts because I believe in following the rules for safety and to save those of us that fly for a living from being banned. I paid my dues to get a license. Why can't others? You are the moderator. You also have a responsibility to look after our industry. It doesn't matter what country by the way. There is no law that allows drones to fly over the top of crowds or to make money from a drone without being licensed. There is no insurance company on the planet that will insure a drone for commercial work without a license. By the way, you say that you dont like the way I say I will report them? Thats amazing.I dont just say it. I DO it. Anyone I see in this country that is flying will get reported if I suspect they are not licensed. I have reported 15 already. Im proud of it even if it does go against your grain. I sent an email off to 3 drone operators last week asking them if they were licensed. 2 in fact were but the other not. Why do we have to spend 10k to get a license if these people can just go out and fly for real estate companies and similar with no respect whatsoever? You tell me.

@DennisR, he came here asking about a scenario in the UK, I answered politely without spitting fire at every post which is almost what you seem to do these days. You should try helping people it's good for the soul.

There are so many countries represented here and some do not have rules at all yet. We know you stance and how much you paid for your Australian licence...you have told us so many times.You seem to be the police in your own country, great, so let's leave it there.

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

 

[DennisR]

@DennisR, he came here asking about a scenario in the UK, I answered politely without spitting fire at every post which is almost what you seem to do these days. You should try helping people it's good for the soul.

There are so many countries represented here and some do not have rules at all yet. We know you stance and how much you paid for your Australian licence...you have told us so many times.You seem to be the police in your own country, great, so let's leave it there.

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

Sounds good to me. You keep on encouraging those that have no respect for the laws. If he didn't know he had to have a license to fly commercially then he must be nuts. He knows full well and he is trying to get by with a response from people here that says its ok. Everytime I go online and look at this site, there are videos of illegal and dangerous flying.
I would have thought some would be promoting safety rather than letting the idiots get their kicks with free promotion of their illegal flying.

 

[IrishSights]

Sounds good to me. You keep on encouraging those that have no respect for the laws. If he didn't know he had to have a license to fly commercially then he must be nuts. He knows full well and he is trying to get by with a response from people here that says its ok. Everytime I go online and look at this site, there are videos of illegal and dangerous flying.
I would have thought some would be promoting safety rather than letting the idiots get their kicks with free promotion of their illegal flying.

You seem not to be able to read or read and make something else up out of it to suit your own mindset. You say I "keep on encouraging those that have no respect for the laws" I actively discouraged him! I don't know where you get this fairytale stuff from.

I NEVER encourage UK unlawful or dangerous flying. You should maybe consider a career in fiction.

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

 

[pixl45]

You seem not to be able to read or read and make something else up out of it to suit your own mindset. You say I "keep on encouraging those that have no respect for the laws" I actively discouraged him! I don't know where you get this fairytale stuff from.

I NEVER encourage UK unlawful or dangerous flying. You should maybe consider a career in fiction.

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

I think the point that @DennisR missed in the OP was the fact that the poster was not looking for approval to fly commercially at all, quite the contrary. He is clearly wanting to respect the law, and has said so.

What his inquiry was about was whether or not the proposed flight would be construed as "commercial".

@Storm Chaser appears to be a good member of this community - flying as a hobbyist, holding insurance, and consulting experts. This is exemplary behavior.

@DennisR insists on being an *** everytime he gets in front of a computer.

 

[DennisR]

You seem not to be able to read or read and make something else up out of it to suit your own mindset. You say I "keep on encouraging those that have no respect for the laws" I actively discouraged him! I don't know where you get this fairytale stuff from.

I NEVER encourage UK unlawful or dangerous flying. You should maybe consider a career in fiction.

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

I admit you are one of the sane people on here and I never said you yourself encourage illegal activities. Its pretty clear the site is set up for that just the same. I just dont believe anyone comes on here and asks information when It is for all to see anywhere on site. the chap knows he has to have a license to fly commercially. I just saw a link to a video that showed 2 idiots flying at night over a crowd of people... hundreds of people. Its the reason idiots make these videos. They get famous because the sites encourage them. One flies 2 miles.. next day, someone else flies 3 miles.... and it goes on.
I do try to be helpful many times. I just really get annoyed at those that are going to cause our drones being banned. My main work is tv commercial production so I guess it wouldn't matter to me if I couldn't fly. I make an excellent living anyway. It looks like the new relaxed laws will not get passed here in Australia. Thats a good thing. I must admit if I had my time again, I would not have got a license. It would have been much easier just to pay someone unlicensed to shoot for me and take the rap.

 

[DennisR]

I think the point that @DennisR missed in the OP was the fact that the poster was not looking for approval to fly commercially at all, quite the contrary. He is clearly wanting to respect the law, and has said so.

What his inquiry was about was whether or not the proposed flight would be construed as "commercial".

@Storm Chaser appears to be a good member of this community - flying as a hobbyist, holding insurance, and consulting experts. This is exemplary behavior.

@DennisR insists on being an *** everytime he gets in front of a computer.

Whatever. He said he was going to fly over private property to film a job for someone who was going to make money from his footage. He was hoping the fact he was over private property meant he was not working commercially. Its pretty plain to see he was asking how he could get away with it. The fact that he asked was because he knew it was out of bands. It doesn't matter anyway. What you people think of me is none of my business.

 

[IrishSights]

Whatever. He said he was going to fly over private property to film a job for someone who was going to make money from his footage. He was hoping the fact he was over private property meant he was not working commercially. Its pretty plain to see he was asking how he could get away with it. The fact that he asked was because he knew it was out of bands. It doesn't matter anyway. What you people think of me is none of my business.

I didn't get that or assume that on reading the OP. Nothing wrong with hoping and seeking advice. He is upright in my mind as he accepted the input. I find it is always best to see the best in someone and encourage folk to ask away not second guessing the worst intentions. This is getting tiresome Dennis, I'm end my conversation from here.

PFAW Holder
BNUC-S Qualified

 

[Mad_angler1]

The fact the OP asked shows he was looking for guidance regardless of intention, rule are massively different country to country and we should not be judging people based on what they intend to do, I have seen just as much bad behaviour from qualified licensed pilots operating commercially as I have anyone so let's not pretend that being qualified or holding PFAW means your the only ones who are responsible pilots.

I would suggest a few folks get off their high horses and concentrate on what your doing and what going on in your locality rather than trying the police the Internet.

Personally I believe the rules should be relaxed in the UK, whilst PFAW has been successful in making money it's become nothing more than a tick box exercise, smaller craft like the inspire should have far less restriction for commercial use and keep larger craft under the regulations, while this may not sit well with many but the current system is just not tenable with how accessible these products are now.

 

[World Media]

These people know the rules but keep on asking. Why dont you get on their back and put a stop to this nonsense. You are encouraging them to break the rules by allowing posting of videos that are shot above crowds and 3 miles out. Why do you allow this? You like to kick me in the guts because I believe in following the rules for safety and to save those of us that fly for a living from being banned. I paid my dues to get a license. Why can't others? You are the moderator. You also have a responsibility to look after our industry. It doesn't matter what country by the way. There is no law that allows drones to fly over the top of crowds or to make money from a drone without being licensed. There is no insurance company on the planet that will insure a drone for commercial work without a license. By the way, you say that you dont like the way I say I will report them? Thats amazing.I dont just say it. I DO it. Anyone I see in this country that is flying will get reported if I suspect they are not licensed. I have reported 15 already. Im proud of it even if it does go against your grain. I sent an email off to 3 drone operators last week asking them if they were licensed. 2 in fact were but the other not. Why do we have to spend 10k to get a license if these people can just go out and fly for real estate companies and similar with no respect whatsoever? You tell me.

Assuming you have a driving license I doubt you pick up the phone to the cops every time you see a car parked on a double yellow line or dob yourself in when you go a couple over the limit!
Just because you have the license and credentials doesn't make you the police, judge, jury or executioner. I sense you would take great joy in being the latter!
I am against illegal flying, I believe everyone should be licensed hobbyist or not and I actually think all flight data should be uploaded to a central server for reference in case there is an issue.
However, most of us have sufficiently fulfilled lives that we don't take pride in in trying to cause trouble for others out of spite.
The guy asked for advice!
For the record I'm licensed!

 

[PortCanaveralFlorida]

I'm going to be "The Editor" for one second.

AHum...nice topic! I hope this is settled because the sandbox is now closed to the public! Mom always said....play nice or don't play at all!

 

[gazza95]

At risk of continuing to resurect an old post.........

Storm I suggest you contact the CAA.

When I did my ground school there were people from British rail who were filming BR sites, for BR use, without a PFAW. They had contacted the CAA and had been informed that as they were doing work for their own company on their own land they did not need a PFAW. So while it was a "commercial" activity it was all within the company's "control".

I understand, and could be wrong, that farmers filming their own property are in the same group.

As your employer is looking to use it to promote their own property you may fall into the same group. If they sold the film it would obviously become a commercial activity.

 

[DennisR]

Assuming you have a driving license I doubt you pick up the phone to the cops every time you see a car parked on a double yellow line or dob yourself in when you go a couple over the limit!
Just because you have the license and credentials doesn't make you the police, judge, jury or executioner. I sense you would take great joy in being the latter!
I am against illegal flying, I believe everyone should be licensed hobbyist or not and I actually think all flight data should be uploaded to a central server for reference in case there is an issue.
However, most of us have sufficiently fulfilled lives that we don't take pride in in trying to cause trouble for others out of spite.
The guy asked for advice!
For the record I'm licensed!

Actually I do pick up the phone when i see people texting while driving. I call the cops. To me, its the most dangerous thing to be doing.
The cops cant be everywhere so someone has to dob these mongrels in. they cause accidents.
Maybe you are licensed but do you do this work for a living? It doesn't seem to bother you that the work is under threat by illegal people doing commercial work for next to nothing. Yesterday I lost the filming of 5 display homes because another person undercut my price by half. He offered to do all their drone work free and he is not licensed. Do I dob him in? Absolutely. It was a $12,000 job and included all inside video and still work. its not fair and its not right. Say what you like. Im starting to wish i never had a license. Listening to some of you guys talk makes me wonder.

 

[World Media]

Actually I do pick up the phone when i see people texting while driving. I call the cops. To me, its the most dangerous thing to be doing.
The cops cant be everywhere so someone has to dob these mongrels in. they cause accidents.
Maybe you are licensed but do you do this work for a living? It doesn't seem to bother you that the work is under threat by illegal people doing commercial work for next to nothing. Yesterday I lost the filming of 5 display homes because another person undercut my price by half. He offered to do all their drone work free and he is not licensed. Do I dob him in? Absolutely. It was a $12,000 job and included all inside video and still work. its not fair and its not right. Say what you like. Im starting to wish i never had a license. Listening to some of you guys talk makes me wonder.

Isn't it against the law to "Pick up the phone" while driving ... pot calling the kettle black.
I have earned my living and those of many many staff in the film industry for many years.
I do get your point, specifically when things like losing the job to non licensed individuals is concerned, it has been happening in the film and photography industry for many many years.
By all means speak with the company hiring the non licensed UAV pilot and explain the situation.
My point in general is that Karma can be a ***** ...... and two wrongs don't make a right ... keep the higher ground my friend.
Having been the victim of a DOBBER myself who didn't have the sense to realise that actually filming on active runways and within feet of aircraft as they taxi along with the internal footage airside of the airport might have indicated that the filming was completely under control of the airport, ATC and CAA. We wasted hours of time corresponding with plod to satisfy him that the correct permissions and licences were indeed in place.
I have to say that in many places its getting easier and sometimes cheaper to get back up in a helicopter.